Curse

Mekkakat · May 08, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

I've been using this darn near everywhere just for fun lol..

12 Wilderness
16 Spear Mastery

Apply poison
barbed spear
blazing spear
cruel spear
harriers toss
disrupting throw
troll unguent
rez

full survivors, and something that stings as far as the spear goes. again, this is great pressure/damage for anything with an interrupt, and with a neat lil tricky "darned if you do/dont" thing with Cruel/Harriers... dont run!.. wait.. RUN! lol... if apply poison wears your 2 pips down too fast (you should get 2 full uses before you have to regen a lil), just switch to a zealous something, i'll pump you back up in no time. fun build to play with!

Xiaxhou of Trinity · May 10, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

everywhere in PvE or PvP? In PvP I guess this would be nice, poison with bleed and deep wound is always great pressure. In PvE this would seem sort of slow in clearing mobs and or bosses. IMO, switch out blazing spear for spear of lightning (just for something to use while charging adrenaline/skills) or unblockable throw (great for stancers in both PvE and PvP). I usually use AP with barbarous->gash->FT wtih W/R =]

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

er.. i guess i shouldnt have said.. everywhere everywhere :P. mostly pvp. it just drains the crap out of monks

moko · May 10, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Cruel Spear [E]
Apply Poison
Barbed Spear
Troll/Disrupting/Harrier's/Natural Stride
"Go for the Eyes!"
Anthem of Flame
Aggressive Refrain
Rez sig

^imo MUCH better than your current.

at least 8 leadership, a bit of command, doesn't matter a lot, 7 or 9 WS and then max spear out, i cba checking attributes atm.

reasons:

- you have ENERGY MANAGEMENT
- you have an IAS (!!!)
- you ran way too many attack skills
- you have a party whide damage boost through GFTE and Anthem of Flame

you could also bring Stunning Strike and then Vicious Attack which supplies a DW with GFTE quite often -- and Stunning is quite a killer.

i'd prefer a R/P anytime though.

Cruel Spear / Stunning Strike [E]
Barbed Spear
Disrupting Throw / Vicious Attack
Natural Stride
Troll Unguent
Tiger's Fury
Apply Poison
Rez sig

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 03:13 PM // 15:13

the reason its 12 ws and 16 spear is due to the main fact that i dont like spending but so many atts. command.. leadership...ws.. spear.. i think dipping into, and trying to use too many things is a fast way to not be nearly as effective. the idea of the build is intense full team pressure.. not support/super dps/team utility. the build is to use poison to keep the monk at work, while spreading bleeding on top as well.. the two conditions constantly being applied, with keeping blazing spear on their monk alone will frustrate any healer out there. on top of that, an IAS is useless for a build that barely needs adrenaline, and isnt trying to spike. the spike comes from the single-man utility in conditions with Cruel+disrupting or Harriers for a quick 2 hits regardless of IAS anyhow. usually i use Harriers-Cruel (as they stop to begin healing)-disrupt for the most violent spike a paragon can dish out. an IAS wouldnt affect that skill chain anyhow. also, as said before, the pressure is the main focus, and i've never had energy management issues

moko · May 10, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

the reason you don't need as much WS is because the poison duration from apply is already enough at 7 or 9. command will only need a few leftovers (3-4) and command around 8 so you get 4 energy bonus, which allows you to spam more over time without having to worry about a zealous mod.

this is going to pressure just as "good" (*cough*).

and hell yes, IAS does make a difference. and besides, who said IAS equals spike?

the thing is, you have a deepwound in both cases, you have the normal 7 degen and additional burning, which in the second build is often not only coming from you, although it ain't as long. your party is going to land more critical hits, and you're going to dish out a lot more attacks.

basically..i took your build, kicked crap, and added something useful in it. plus, i've tested both on dummies really quickly, and i can't see how yours has an advantage. but hey, deny improvements then and stick with yours.

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

because a ranger (or should i say a good ranger) using Apply, first applies poison to the entire team first, then goes through, for the cover up, and strikes each member again, forcing the monks to continue removing conditions. it wont last long enough to strike every opponent twice AND still use it as a cover for fire/bleeding/dw when taking your single character once you're fully charged with adrenaline. unless you're not hitting your opponents, using zeal during this first phase is more than enough to cover the 15 nrg cost. after everyone has poison, add more pressure with bleeding over each person (or select few to save time), and proceed to spike your main target i.e. monk or 60al target. save tanks/dervs for last, and this build is crazy good as is. im open to suggestions, or your own version of the build, but saying my build sucks just because you dont know how to use it (even though i gave detailed instructions) isnt a fair claim at all. also, the build only has 2 other energy moves other than the heal.. so why is energy for anything but Apply so important to you? using 3-4 attributes is a total waste, regardless of shoddy energy management, that isnt needed at all whatsoever. you say IAS is needed for whatever reason, when spears attack very fast already, and on top of that, isnt necessary for a build whos spike is a 1/4 throw casting time regardless. pumping command.. ws.. leadership.. and spear.. for what? you explained how a poor version of the energy management, and an IAS will generally do nothing.. so gg?

clawofcrimson · May 10, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Not a bad build. It is a bit energy intensive but with the right equipment I don't think its a problem.

[card]Apply poison[/card][card]barbed spear[/card][card]blazing spear[/card][card]cruel spear[/card][card]harrier's toss[/card][card]disrupting throw[/card][card]troll unguent[/card][card]signet of return[/card]

^ your build reminds me of the one I posted in 'Paragon Basics' called 'blazing hunter... at the bottom of the page:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10151254

The one I posted is more of a straight pressure build with no big spikes... but it takes advatage of a lv 12 pet dps as well. I think a paragon is not quite as good at spreading conditions from target to target because of the spears range and skills available (poison arrow shines at this). But the paragon's dps is king.

moko · May 10, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

there's not much to know how to use that build. everyone can do it, you don't even know if i can use it or not, so gg to you.

before you said this wasn't even about spiking, so an IAS was useless. now you say it's not needed for spiking -- which is right, but the IAS is used for pressure (with what you argued before), and it does help a lot, i don't know what you've been smoking that you think aggressive isn't needed, maybe you just never realised it ran out or something, anyways..

and no, using 3-4 attributes is not a waste. i'm not sure how good you are, if you ever heard of a tab button, but 7/9 WS is enough for MEto spread the poison with bleeding on enough foes, even while casting Anthem sometimes. so lol? also, an IAS makes that easier also.

and you still don't seem to realise that you don't even invest many points into those attributes.

but ya, i'll leave you to it. one-minded-sight is key.

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

pressure comes in many forms, not just dps Mokone, and you seemingly fail to realize that basic function of gaming. healing/curing conditions OVER and OVER equals PRESSURE, that isn't remidied very easily at all seeing as its being applied again and again. the adrenaline is so easy to gain, switching targets, striking with Apply, and barbed here and there, combine that with a lazy spike thats on call ON TARGET, and you get a super killer, with an IAS ignoring 1/4 second after throw ftw.

true Claw, a spear does have a harder time getting in range to cause th conditions, but as we all know with paragons being great midline/frontliners, thats not really all that hard once the fight starts.

maybe you should actually TRY the build Mokone, instead of automatically knowing how good it is, especially seeing as you have yet to describe the PROPER way to use it, which is the entire downfall to your already weak debate. btw, 3 atts in command is TOTALLY a waste, take out WS altogether, and make a DPS king if thats the case dude. this is a totally DIFFERENT part of the gaming technique, not just spearing people to death. using tactical fighting, smart attacks, and the occasional mind trick is a great of way of knowing how to play the game. not "apply poison, use all your adrenal skills in a row on one target".. .obviously you just dont know how to use the build, and in that case, i dont see why you continue to argue at all.

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

also Mokone, whatever works for you is fine, but if you notice in the OP, i said THIS build works for ME, i.e., you can try it, and your comments are appreciated, but telling me it doesnt work, when i kill monks everyday, to the point of getting pms telling me how bad i drained them, isnt going to really win me over.. seeing as i know it works.. i use it.. all the time.

zwei2stein · May 10, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

you really should try build that has ias and emanagment in it, you wouldnt have downtime in which you have no energy for apply, and ias goes long way in making adren skills more spamable and target switching for poisoning more rapid

clawofcrimson · May 10, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

^ this is why I would rather have the build I posted... poison bite is the cheapest poison.. heket's is cheap ias... etc..

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

sigh now you guys are just randomly saying things. switching a pet to use poison bite on a whole team is total nonsense, when the build, at least when I use it, has zero downtime. geeze, i specifically posed to use a zeal mod if you're having problems, and even WITHOUT i STILL dont have any

moko · May 10, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

healing/curing conditions OVER and OVER equals PRESSURE, that isn't remidied very easily at all seeing as its being applied again and again.

yeah, because it's so easy you don't need a lot of WS because you can easily reapply them.

Quote:

maybe you should actually TRY the build Mokone

i have, i said it in my earlier posts -- i know how it works, you spread both bleeding (through barbed) and poison on targets, while also using blazing for the max cap for 10 degen which is a good pressure, interrupting skills with disrupting, because everything should at least have some kind of conditions, and have a quick spike through your heavy deepwound attack followed by harriers which is a fast "cast" attack. disrupting can also be used for the spike, but seeing how you shouldn't throw with utility when it lacks utility already i dunno why you would want to do that.

Quote:

btw, 3 atts in command is TOTALLY a waste

"Go for the Eyes!" doesn't need a lot attribute investment to be effective.

i'm not sure what of my build you don't get -- have YOU actually tested mine? surely not, because, you can keep the SAME AMOUNT OF CONDITIONS on the same amount of characters, applying the same condition pressure minus the burning if you are alone which is less.

Quote:

i said THIS build works for ME, i.e., you can try it, and your comments are appreciated, but telling me it doesnt work, when i kill monks everyday

i didn't say it wouldn't work, i said there's better versions of it, throwing endless amount of attack skills on one char when you can accomplish the same thing with less skills is pretty much tutorial build style. even Vital Boon + Sig of Psious light requires more skill to make up than this.

and besides, do you have anyway to show me your pvp experience if i'm *THAT* wrong? you said this was mainly working for PVP, so i might as well ask for your accomplishments, eg titles, high ranked guilds you've been in? because right now, you seem to be some unexperienced player that thinks to know the game mechanics, is too proud to actually try something himself.

but one last comment about the attributes..are you one of those players that thinks more than 2 attributes is too much spreading and therefore sucks? eg; dervish using scythe and mysticism only, paragon spear and WS, ranger expertise and marks, monk divine and heal, etc? are you? i really seem to get this image.

by the way.

FIX YOUR GODDAMN POSTS! they're so horrible hard to read.

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

you're just flat out annoying Mokone. unless you're handicapped, my post are incredibly legible, including well written instructions, and full use of the build, using real words and sentences, whereas you seemingly get so angry as to need to curse. also, your cute comments about my so called lack of pvp experience is totally uncalled for. as for testing, i test EVERYTHING i read immediately, your build being far inferior to the build i'm using, and the practically useless GFTE that was landing criticals every 3rd time i'd use it, because of its low attribute setting. i dont spend my attributes frivolously (if you even know what that word means) on everything i see cause its "cool" or "zomg so good" to whoever. if im playing warrior and i know my monks, im strength and weapon mastery, otherwise, its tactics last, strength, and always 16 weapon mastery. i NEVER go past 3 unless the caps for ALL of the moves allow me to move on, in a manor fitting to the build, and not just to random utility skills you try to throw in, for some garbage energy management, you clearly DONT need if you KNEW how to play EFFICIENTLY, which is CLEARLY something you totally lack, along with manners. also, yet AGAIN, you improperly posted how the build is used.. but i guess you know right? if its such an easy build, why is it that you cant seemingly grasp the basic concepts of how the skills are used? Winner.

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

p.s., im done posting, whoever can or wants to, please close this. people just have zero common courtesy, and on top of that, lack the gaming skill required to make decent, educated post. if i wanted DPS, i'd ADD AN IAS. SWITCHING TARGETS DOESN'T REQUIRE AN IAS, NOR DOES A 1/4 SECOND ATTACK.

moko · May 10, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

but i guess you know right? if its such an easy build, why is it that you cant seemingly grasp the basic concepts of how the skills are used? Winner.

as i said; you spread conditions (7 degen, 10 with burning), you can spike with your elite and harriers..what else to say? please, explain me how to use it properly then.

Quote:

my post are incredibly legible, including well written instructions, and full use of the build, using real words and sentences, whereas you seemingly get so angry as to need to curse.

dunno but, as far as i can see, your first reply towards me was angry already. do you expect me to stay friendly when you are getting stressed right away also? but besides, i can't find a lot "cursing" in here,

Quote:

also, your cute comments about my so called lack of pvp experience is totally uncalled for. as for testing, i test EVERYTHING i read immediately, your build being far inferior to the build i'm using, and the practically useless GFTE that was landing criticals every 3rd time i'd use it, because of its low attribute setting.

a crit every third hit is a nice thing, especially when it applies to your party also (yes, i know you wanted this to be solo damage, but it's a teamgame afterall, i can't ignore that fact). and it wasn't even that low when i tested it, i managed to still put a decent amount into command. (btw, i still don't see any of that PVP experience. and yes, i've tested both also, maybe we both lack of knowledge on eachothers builds, or one is simply lying.)

Quote:

i dont spend my attributes frivolously (if you even know what that word means)

no, i do not in fact -- and i'm not even ashamed of saying it. you trying to act smart and making fun for me for being young and not native english? that's low level now.

Quote:

for some garbage energy management, you clearly DONT need if you KNEW how to play EFFICIENTLY, which is CLEARLY something you totally lack, along with manners.

garbage e management? how can you deny e management? it's a key to a successful build. and yes, i know you mentioned zealous mods, but what if you are blinded? if your targets block? or short, you simply can't land a hit. your energy would slowly die and you'll have a hard time getting it up. or e denial? etc. GFTE spamming is extremely useful for energy.

Quote:

if i wanted DPS, i'd ADD AN IAS. SWITCHING TARGETS DOESN'T REQUIRE AN IAS, NOR DOES A 1/4 SECOND ATTACK.

building up adrenaline is easier with an IAS. you can add DPS and pressure through conditions still although you have an IAS -- if my build did not include poison, bleeding and burning i would understand you, but it does, so i don't see the problem? honestly.

btw, i hate doing quotewars, but i'm too tired to post properly atm. >.<

Mekkakat · May 10, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

look, by far, this is not my style to argue over silly things such as this. its simply a fun, easy, effective build that you can choose to try/use if you please. simple as that. if i sounded disgruntled (although i honestly dont see how in my response to your first post....) i apologize, because if thats the case, then maybe i egged you on into becoming so aggressive. as far as your reading comprehension and literary skills, how was i even supposed to know you weren't American? lol.. you bashed my writing skills, and while not only did that not fit the subject, and was entirely uncalled for, wasn't even correct.. but again.. thats beside the point. i see BOTH points made by you AND Claw, and while he speaks of pure energy cost, and you talk about IAS/DPS/energy management, and full team utility.. think of a ranger.. does a ranger use shouts.. what about an assassin? just because a paragon CAN use them, doesn't mean you need to inch them into every build. i use MANY builds, and this is just a fun little one that works incredibly well, every time i use it, without breaking a sweat, especially in 4v4 arenas when i just want to kick back with friends. again, i apologize, did test both of your builds, and while finding FULL USE for both, neither fit the criteria that this build utilizes with its constant full team pressure. the anthem of flame, while good emanagement, would not give +damage and the longer fire condition, needed for the beginning of the spike, which would be used once the team felt as though the monk was at breaking point.

example of gameplay (this is almost ALWAYS what happens):

apply poison, attack every target 1-2 times, to cover all dismiss conditions ect, at least a few times, then apply barbed to as many targets as you like, you should have BEEN at full adrenaline, and once you feel ready, target the healer, use blazing-harriers-cruel (because 90% of the time they have stopped to heal)-disrupting, to disrupt any follow up heal or move if any.

most of the time, they dont make it to the follow up cast, so save the disrupting for rez sig, and then spike the rezzers. maybe it is easy to use, but i haven't seen almost anyone use this build, and it's not overly complex theorems and strategies that win the game.. its skill use. again, this build works with aplomb, for me, and while i'd love you to try it, maybe just once in say RA, just for fun, obviously that's not that important. i'm not forcing anything down anyones throat. also, i've dealt with blind a lot as a paragon, now that people have finally caught on to us just basically being ranged warriors, and i always bring a +15 energy staff (i always use my pve paragon) in case an echo wears off, or in this case, Apply Poison, and i couldn't zeal my way back the energy supply to fuel it. its a temporary fix, that works wonders with shout builds if you get your energy denied, because say for instance, GFTEs would convert your adrenaline BACK to energy, bringing you out of the negatives VERY quickly, even though you had to dip down there using the staff in order to say.. bring back Aggressive Refrain. i'm by no means a "noob", especially on Rit, warrior, paragon, and rangers, seeing as those are my fav/most played characters. i play everything, but i'd never say that i'm as skilled as the masters on those classes. again, apologies i think are in order, and im not afraid to say i was wrong, because to be honest, i was a lil flustered by your 3rd post Mokone

byteme! · May 10, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

I can't believe we got 2 people arguing over simple game mechanics. Neither of which want to budge either.